NUSTL’s Bread and Butter

Guest: Orly Amir, Program Manager, Radiological/Nuclear Response and Recovery (RNRR), National Urban Security Technology Laboratory

Host: Dee Saini, Media Strategist

[00:00] Dave: This is Technologically Speaking, the official podcast for the Department of Homeland Security, Science & Technology Directorate, or S&T, as we call it. Join us as we meet the science and technology experts on the front lines, keeping America safe.

[00:00:15] Deepak: Hi, I'm Dee Saini. We're thrilled to welcome today's guest, Orly Amir, program manager for the National Urban Security Technology Laboratory, also known as N U S T L. Nice, to have you here, Orly.

[00:00:27] Orly: Hey, thanks for having me Dee.

[00:00:28] Deepak: All right, so let's dive right in. Orly, what led you to your career in radiological and nuclear response and recovery?

[00:00:35] Orly: Yeah, I kind of happened upon it. I'm actually an urban planner by training. I worked on Capitol Hill, and I worked for a congressman that, that's district in New Jersey had several hundred-year floods in, very short order. And so, I decided to leave kind of policy making and go to planning school, with the idea that good planning can help prevent emergencies and environmental disasters. and when I got to planning school, I focused on transportation and infrastructure planning, and finishing grad school. I worked on a FEMA grant, called the Regional Catastrophic Preparedness Grant Program. And I started doing evacuation planning, which is really transportation planning, which is what I went to school for. So how do you use the network, to move people during different types of emergencies? And it was there that I started. I started getting to know a little bit more about radiological and nuclear planning, developing some regional plans for nuclear detonation response. And, with that, I met N U S T L and moved over to DHS and the rest is history here.

[00:01:36] Deepak: Okay. That's a perfect segue to my next question. So, the Radiological Nuclear Response and Recovery Research and Development Program, it increases preparedness, enhances response or capabilities in advance of any incidents, and it also minimizes the impact of radiological or nuclear detonation for community. So not only that, but there's so many tools and models and guidance and knowledge products for first responders. Did you have a special interest in radioactivity or nuclear physics before you became involved with this program?

[00:02:08] Orly: Nope, not at all. I didn't even know what those words meant. I'm interested in it from an emergency preparedness point of view and from like a resilient and livable communities’ point of view. So I went to planning school because I care about like the resiliency of our communities, the livability of our communities, and being prepared for emergencies is just one aspect that and as the program manager for the Rad Nuc Response and Recovery Program, I bring to the table that emergency planning, emergency management capability or that knowledge. And then I rely on subject matter experts, such as health physicists, meteorologists, chemists, engineers who really understand the technical side of radiation and protective actions for radiation to develop the products that we create. No, I didn't, I didn't have a dream of being, of working in radiological terrorism, but I just see it as another way that we can work with communities to be better prepared. It's just in the suite of things that we want them to be prepared for. This is just one other hazard.

[00:03:09] Deepak: Gotcha.

[00:03:10] Orly: Radiation is just a complicated factor. So in a radiological dispersal device, or a dirty bomb scenario, that's, you know, an event where, something has exploded and there's a dispersion, but there's not a nuclear reaction. Communities have to do a lot of the same things that they would do if there was an I E D right? Or a non-radioactive bomb. You know, they need to get a message out to the public. They need to set up a perimeter, they need to initiate lifesaving rescue operations. So, radiation makes that infinitely more complicated because you can't see or smell, definitely not taste radiation. You have to use specialized equipment to understand that it's there. but once you know it’s there, you’re executing a response like very similarly to other responses. It’s just extra complicated because you have this material that you need to be cautious about in terms of protecting emergency responders and protecting the public.

[00:04:02] Deepak: All the things you have to keep in mind under the fold as you're progressing with your work. I want to talk a little bit about N U S T L. How would you describe N U S T L to someone who's never heard of it?

[00:04:12] Orly: So, we're based in New York City. We use the New York area as our testbed for understanding how first responders and public safety agencies use technology, how they understand science and how they advance their mission. N U S T L is a mix of program managers like myself, of chemists, of engineers, of physicists. And we really work hard to try to translate the science, to something that first responders can use in the field. and so, everybody is really committed to making sure that the stuff that we create is first responder focused. It's first responder, usable. It's actionable. So not stuff that just sits on a shelf, but something that responders can actually use in the field every day.

[00:04:54] Deepak: Speaking of last summer, we hosted Urban OPEX 2022. It's a operational experimentation event where these first responders really got to test and evaluate new and emerging tech and realistic urban settings. What was it like to get the first responder community together in person, especially in the aftermath of the pandemic?

[00:05:14] Orly: Urban OPEX was awesome last summer. So we had, significantly cut back, during the pandemic on a lot of our in-person engagements with responders. So being able to do the OPEX was really important to us and to the responder community here in New York City. It was a restart of a lot of old engagements, a lot of old relationships that we had. It was using an operational experimentation or essentially test and evaluation activity to connect operational users from the fire department, from the police department, from the emergency management agency and others all in one place focused on different technologies. I think that N U S T L. Is really unique in that we all, as staff here, have had so many wonderful experiences working with first responders in the field. And that's how we learn and that's how we get to know their mission space. So, working on test and evaluation, piloting R&D projects, that's N U S T L bread and butter.

[00:06:14] Deepak: Right.

[00:06:14] Orly: And it's just so valuable for us to see technologies operationally, see the users, use it operationally, and then talk about the issues and challenges. Good, bad, everything in between that these responders have with integration of technology. I think the coolest thing about N U S T L sometimes is. We're really on this forefront of, of policy, technology and of emergency and homeland security response. And so, we're looking at technologies that are in the news every day that our communities are talking about, that our first responders are talking about, and really pushing the envelope you know, on this integration of technology to make first responders faster, safer, more efficient. And if first responders can be faster, safer, more efficient, that just means that the community is safer. That means that they can help the community more easily. And that's, I think, the beauty of N U S T L and the work that we do.

[00:07:11] Deepak: Exactly. You hit the nail on the head. You know, new steel and the work that you do provides such an important resource to first responders throughout the country that affects all of our lives. You never know when you're going to be tied up into some sort of a natural disaster or any sort of manmade disaster where you're going to need a first responder's help.

[00:07:29] Orly: Yeah, last year, in December 2021, president Biden signed the National Defense Authorization Act and named N U S T L as the primary lab for testing and evaluating lifesaving emergency responder technologies. What does that mean to you and the staff at N U S T L to receive this designation? It means a lot to us. It confirms what we've known for a long time, but now it's in authorizing language, which is so important. So essentially the, N D A A, established N U S T L as the test and evaluation lab for DHS for first responders. And that was a mission that we were already doing but having it in legislation really gives weight to the work that we were already doing. The other piece that's really interesting is the N D A A, specifically called out that N U S T L should work in the area of cybersecurity for first responder technologies. And this is something that wasn't a primary focus of our lab before but has become more and more important to our lab since this legislation and also in our discussions with first responders. So, we're currently scoping out what that looks like and how we integrate it into our work. So, talking to the cybersecurity and infrastructure security agency, SISA, talking to first responders and so, not all first responder technologies have a cybersecurity component.

[00:08:49] Orly: So, you know, on one hand we're going to be looking at next year, body armor for women. like the protective vests that they wear, that doesn't necessarily have a cybersecurity component. It's a tactile piece of equipment. but in the same breath, we looked at this year, body worn cameras, and that has a significant cybersecurity component to it. How jurisdictions manage the data, how they collect the data, how do they secure the data, how they make sure it's accessible if they need it for investigations. And so, adding that cybersecurity component to assessments like the one we did on body worn cameras will be really interesting and I think really valuable to the first responder community.

Deepak: You know, that's not surprising. I think you can expect the fact that cybersecurity or some sort of digital online presence is going to creep more and more into the work that we do as we go forward. Since everything is becoming very digital and interconnected. So glad to hear that. So, I wanted to ask you, Orly, since N U S T L is located in the heart of New York City, do you consider yourself a proud New Yorker?

[00:09:50] Orly: I do, I've lived here for over 10 years, I think I've been here since 2007. And I think, like some people say, 10 years is the line where you get to call yourself a New Yorker. So, I consider myself a New Yorker and a very proud New Yorker. My mom was born in, born and raised in Brooklyn, so it feels like home here in New York, even though I grew up in New Jersey.

[00:10:11] Deepak: Oh, that's really great. I bet it makes you feel proud of the work that you do, kind of even more of a family affair. I'm sure they feel very proud of you as well.

[00:10:20] Orly: Yeah, I think that to me, you know, if I come back to why I work in this space, right? What I said before is all about livable communities. and to me that's like the individuals, families and businesses that live in our communities. And those individuals and those families are our families, right? They’re your mom. They're my mom, right? And so being able to, to work here in the city is very important. But also, being able to work across the country. We learn a lot from meeting responders from different jurisdictions, different geographic concerns, different capabilities, right? So, New York has a lot of resources because of the size of the city. And talking to first responders from other communities, they have less resources and how they work the same issues is really interesting and adds a lot of value to us, to our work.

[00:11:07] Deepak: I feel like if anything the last few years has shown us it's that even though before we thought we were so far spread apart, we're actually so much more intertwined and interconnected. I feel like the country, the world's just all in our backyard now.

[00:11:22] Orly: Yeah, I totally agree.

[00:11:24] Deepak: 100%. All right. I want to get specific about the Radiological Nuclear Response and Recovery Research and Development program. What is the technical expertise that the R&RR project provides?

[00:11:40] Orly: We have both technical expertise and then we have program management expertise, in the program. And then we very much rely on expertise from other government agencies and then our performers who execute the work for us. So, our customer for the Rad Nuc Response and Recovery, project or program is in the end user is really first responder organizations and public safety organizations. But we actually consider our customers mostly to be FEMA because they are the place that first responders should be going to get guidance, to get resources, to get information about a hazard like this. So, if we're focused on developing plans, if we're focused on providing guidance on how to develop plans, that's really. What FEMA's mission is, and so our RR&D is supporting FEMA, so we rely on expertise from FEMA. We rely on expertise from the Department of Energy, so the National Nuclear Security Administration. They have a large equity in, in consequence management for radiological and nuclear events. And then we also work closely with the EPA and the CDC and HHS, to be able to all work together, in, as an inter-agency in providing technical information to the first responder and public safety communities.

[00:12:53] Deepak: It definitely takes a village, not just with the components within DHS that we work for and with, but also, like you just mentioned, just connected across other government agencies and also first responder agencies as well. Do you have any examples of some Rad Nuc Response capabilities that N U S T L has developed either alone or in partnership with any of these entities, that you want to highlight?

[00:13:17] Orly: Sure. So, one of the R&D products that I'm particularly proud of that we published in 2017 is the radiological dispersal device Response Guidance, and it's planning for the first 100 minutes. We co-published that with, FEMA and then the Department of Energy's National Nuclear Security Administration. It's really a collaborative document. It's based off of, years and years and years of experimentation by the Department of Energy to understand how radioactive material disperses. And then it brings together the aspect that, that I bring to the table, which is emergency response to provide. The first responder community with a guidance document that's focused on the first minutes, the first hours of a response to an R D D, our radiological dispersal device. And so, it lays out five missions and ten tactics. We worked with a fire chief in New York City who told us firefighters have ten fingers. You got to keep this simple. You can only have ten tactics. And so that's what the document has and it works.

[00:14:16] Deepak: I like that philosophy.

[00:14:18] Orly: Yeah, the, Keep it simple. Keep it focused. It's written in plain language. So, the idea is, tactic one is, if there's a report of an explosion and you're responding, turn on your radiation detection equipment and confirm that you know what's happening. And then it walks all the way through, planning for how you're going to screen and, monitor the population to make sure that they're not contaminated. As the sort of this last step of this initial response. So, this document is something I'm really proud of. It's based off of all this scientific information that, admittedly was out there in the community, but it was, not in a way that was completely accessible to first responders. We put it into something that responders can use. And everywhere I go, every responder that I talk to, you know, I’ll say, hey, do you know the a hundred minute guidance? And in most cases, they do, and they're using it to write their own plans for this type of hazard. So that's been awesome. Then we try to create other R&D products that support a responder's ability to implement the guidance. So, we created these training videos that are found on the S&T YouTube page, and there's a video. There's several videos.

[00:15:25] Orly: There's one for each tactic, and then there's an overview video for all of the tactics. And it really explains visually what the tactic is recommending to be done and, it uses graphics, it uses visual aid to help a responder understand the science behind the recommendation. So why we recommend in an R D D that first responders go into the scene, they make a rescue, and they get out. So that's something I'm super proud of. Those videos, I think, are one of the most popular products that we've created and the RAD Nuc Response Recovery Program.

[00:15:56] Deepak: I'm curious where the 100 minutes came from.

[00:16:00] Orly: Yeah. So, the hundred minutes is decently controversial. There's generally two opinions about it in the community. Some people hate it, and some people love it. On page five of the guidance, we walk through why we picked a hundred minutes, and the idea is it's a completely notional timeline. It's just a round number that we picked to really get a community to think about those first initial actions. It's not meant as like a grading tool that responders would use to say, oh, we didn't accomplish this in a hundred minutes. So, like, the response has failed. That is absolutely not the point of a hundred minutes. It's really to say we are only focusing on these first initial response actions. We have to. Recognize there's radiation on scene. By using our radiation detection equipment to take two measurements in two places with two different instruments, we need to make notifications to our community. We need to issue protective action guidance. We need to initiate lifesaving rescue operations. So, it's really those first steps in emergency response, all disasters are local. So, a local community has to take weight of what tools and what equipment they have, and then where they're going to be asking for help. So, where they're going to ask state assets for help, and then where the state is going to be asking the federal government for help. And that's really all the one hundred minutes is intended to do.

[00:17:16] Deepak: You brought up something that was really important that any time some sort of a rad nuke incident happens, it's always going to be local, especially because it's affecting that direct community. How in your R&D program do you ensure that solutions are flexible and scalable?

[00:17:32] Orly: That's really the name of the game. So, one of the things that we're trying to do, help responders really understand what tools and what assets the federal interagency is going to bring to the table so that they start planning for that early on. So, some of the R&D that we've done is actually building enhancements into other government agencies tools that they give to responders. So, things that, like the Department of Energy has. to help responders make decisions. Those are the types of things that we're investing in because we think that enables responders to sort of, bridge this timeline between boom and then when the federal cavalry shows up, depending on what time that is. So that, that's one way we're trying to do that. Another way we try to do that is, is understand that range is really talk to communities. So, I talked earlier about how much I love New York and how great New York is, you know, New York is just one example. And so, meeting with responders from across the country is super important to us. So, we can understand how they interpret the information that we're putting out, how they operationalize the information that we're putting out. So as an example, on that, on the one hundred minute guidance on the R&D guidance before we published it, um, we did pilot it with several communities, so large communities, And then smaller communities, and we really got a feel for how smaller communities can leverage resources that may not be as common, but super important to a small community. And so that, that's one thing that we did when we wrote that guidance document to make sure that it was, truly scalable.

[00:19:00] Deepak: So, the work that new tool does is super important, but I think a lot of times the average everyday American may not always get on the surface what it is that we do at S&T and at N U S T L in general. Can you just walk us through why is this type of R&D so important for the everyday American?

[00:19:19] Orly: I think that this R&D is important for our communities because, we want responders, we assume that responders are prepared for all different types of hazards, and so the R&D that we're working on is really geared towards responders. It's really geared. To make sure that they understand the radiation hazard so they can protect themselves. And if they can protect themselves, they can protect the public. And I think that's why it's really important to focus on this. If you ask the average person, I think that they're pretty terrified of radiation and the idea of radiation. And so, making sure that responders really actually understand what they would encounter is super important. We work on two primary hazards, within rad nuke. So, we work on, like a radiological dispersal device, or a nuclear detonation. And, in those scenarios, we actually provide, we, I mean, the scientific community provides different recommendations for responders. So, in an R D D scenario, we recommend that responders go in, make a rescue, and come out. The radiation levels are relatively low, so we think it's safe for them to do that. But in a nuclear detonation, we recommend that responders shelter in place as well. So, in a nuclear detonation, the common phrase is get inside, stay inside, stay tuned. and that's not just for the public, that's for responders as well. So, it's not safe for responders to go outside until they have radiation detection instrumentation, and they can confirm what the radiation levels are outside. And so, I really try to make sure our R&D is focused on. Giving that knowledge to responders and giving it to them in a way where they might not be thinking about it every day because, they have a lot of other things to think about that happen every single day. But giving them that information, so if they do need to use it, hopefully they never do. But if they do, they have that information readily so they can protect themselves. If they can't protect themselves, they can't protect the public. So that's why I think it's super important, the work that we do.

[00:21:21] Deepak: I'm really curious to know your opinion about this. We need first responders to be ready for absolutely anything. Fires, floods, hurricanes, power outages, top of all that, any sort of radioactive or nuclear disasters too. Do you feel like sometimes we expect too much out of first responders.

[00:21:39] Orly: I think first responders carry a lot of a lot of load for the communities that they serve. Absolutely. There are a lot of things to consider, and some of them are really routine and some of them are really complicated, and then there's a lot in between. So, I don't think it's easy to be a first responder. I think we do ask a lot of responders. I sometimes say that I have the luxury right of only focusing on one hazard and only focusing it on one time, one part of the time scale, which is, right of boom. Even in the rad nuke space, the same fire chief that I'm talking to about response and recovery is talking to the other side about prevention, interdiction and detection. So, I’m lucky that I get to specialize, but we take that into consideration as we build out R&D projects. So, we're not trying to create new widgets that have to sit on a responder's belt because we take this assumption that the responder's belt is already too full and too heavy. We’re not trying to create things that require extensive training or extensive training budgets because we recognize that responders training schedules are full, and their budgets are full for training. And so, we're trying to create actionable products integrating into existing technologies that really, I don't want to say lower the bar because it's it's not diminishing the work, but it's really making it more accessible, to responders who have a lot on their plates and a lot on their agendas.

[00:23:00] Deepak: Not only them, but you do as well. Your job involves a lot of thinking about worst case scenarios as well. Do you find it more stressful or comforting to plan for disasters?

[00:23:08] Orly:  I just find it to be what I do, I, I don't know if I. I don't, it doesn't stress me out particularly, to think about these types of things because I think about them in a really organized, logical way. and we get to have really frank discussions about capabilities, right? We have to do X; can we do X in this timeline? No. Okay. What other resources can we bring in to help us do x in the timeline that we need to? So really matter of fact, conversations about the hazard, I don't find myself really thinking about like how it happened, I come from this point of view is like the thing happened. radioactive material is on the ground, and we have to just start dealing with it. Obviously, I hope that never happens. I hope I have a career that's absolutely not. but those are the things that, that's how I approach this seemingly scary topic.

[00:23:55] Deepak:  Well, what practical piece of advice would you want to give our listeners if they find themselves downwind of a Rad Nuc Disaster?

[00:24:03] Orly: Listen to the message. Listen to what state and local authorities are telling you to do. and really listen carefully to the message. one thing I worry about a little bit is that, in, in our community, in radiological response, we use the term shelter in place. shelter in place means something very specific and a rad hazard. And it's not the same thing that it means during Covid. So, during Covid, people used the term shelter in place, but They said, oh, you should shelter in place. But if you need to walk your dog or you need to get groceries, or you want to do a short exercise, you can do that. if someone is saying shelter in place because there's been a radiological incident, they mean get inside, close all the windows, move away from the windows, put as much protective material as you can between yourself and the outside, and don't come out until a first responder tells you it's okay to come out. So, my recommendation to the public for radiological preparedness is the message that our colleagues in FEMA and other government agencies use, which is get inside, stay inside, stay tuned. So, get away from the hazard. radiation protection is all about time, distance, and shielding.

[00:25:07] Deepak: That's really solid advice. I have to ask, do you roll your eyes at shows and tv, movies that attempt to show some sort of rad nuke emergency and they totally get everything wrong?

[00:25:18] Orly: I sometimes just don't watch. So, I, there's a TV show that I really like that, their season finale last year was starting out as a radiological hazard. And I just was like, I don't need this in my personal life right now. And I did not watch it. but, that's a, that doesn't happen all that often, to be honest with you.

[00:25:36] Deepak: Yeah, my mom's a nurse, so it's just like trying to get her to watch a medical TV drama. Yeah, I get it. Same thing. She'll have to walk away.

[00:25:43] Orly: Yeah. I just was like, I love this. Every day I'm going to just pause and then I read like the recap of what happened to the characters so I could start off in the new season.

[00:25:53] Deepak: So, on a personal note, how does it feel to directly be able to support first responders?

[00:26:00] Orly: That's why I, do what I do. I Think that's the most rewarding part of the job here at N U S T L. we're outside the beltway. We're here in New York. We get to work really closely with, the fire department, with the New York City Police Department, and then responders across the world and just being able to give them the tools that they need to make them faster, efficient, safer, and that's really rewarding. And then it's also super rewarding to get to work on them, collaboratively with this responder organizations and then see how they operationalize it, right? So, you know, I'll always just say like, I’m just me at my desk, I think I know, but you guys have to put this through the paces, and then tell me and what's awesome is that we've built really good connections and people are not shy. They'll just say, hey, Orly, we exercised this, and this is what came out of this, or it would be super helpful if we could have more information about this. And then we work to start solving that. So, I think working with the first responders is the most rewarding part of the job. And I said this earlier, right? to me it comes down to individuals, families, and businesses, right? So those are, that's my family. that's me, that's my peers. And I want responders to be safe, smart, efficient, and able to help those people when they need it.

[00:27:12] Deepak: No, that's very well said. What emotions or thoughts come to you when you think of the word science?

[00:27:18] Orly:  I would never have considered myself like a science nerd by any means. I studied public policy type things. but I love that we are on this cutting edge between science and technology, and homeland security emergency response, right? Um, I think that that’s the most valuable thing. one thing that I've, I found really interesting is that, um, you know, as we integrate technology, it really does come down to science, right? Like, you know, I sometimes ask our, I'll ask the scientists at the lab, is this even scientifically possible? Do we have this in science? And they'll sometimes say no. And that's super interesting to me because that's stuff that we as a Science and Technology Directorate can invest in.

[00:27:53] Deepak: Yeah, I think it really takes a curious mindset and someone that just wants to push the needle forward in terms of the betterment of the community. So, you strike me as someone that appreciates work life balance. Do you have any hobbies unrelated to your job?

[00:28:08] Orly: Yeah, I have hobbies. I try not to think about, you know, radiation all the time. I like to run, so I am, I did the New York City Marathon twice and many years ago. Don't plan on doing it again, but I like to do short races like 5Ks or 10 Ks. I'm a proud New Yorker, so I love to go to Broadway shows, like love, love Broadway shows.

[00:28:27] Deepak: What’s your favorite?

[00:28:28] Orly:  I like musicals, like old school musicals, like big numbers, big productions.

[00:28:34] Deepak: Phantom of the Opera?

[00:28:35] Orly: I've never seen Phantom.

[00:28:37] Deepak: It's great.

[00:28:37] Orly: I should see it because it's closing. This year.

[00:28:39] Deepak: As, as a proud, you can't call yourself a proud New Yorker.

[00:28:43] Orly: Yeah, I just, I honestly. I just buy myself a ticket. I don't coordinate with any friends. I don't coordinate with my boyfriend. I'm just like, I just, I'm like, I want to see that show and I'll just go on a Tuesday night by myself. and it provides me like so much happiness and so much joy to have access to that in New York City.

[00:28:59] Deepak: I also hear you're a former ice hockey player.

[00:29:02] Orly: Very former. But yeah, so I played in college. I went to Union College, and I played there for four years. After college I, played a tiny bit like in rec leagues. And then, that was when I was living in DC now that I live in New York and I live in a small apartment, one does not need ice hockey equipment in their apartment. It's really smelly. So, I have put away those skates. But I do love ice hockey. I love like all sports.

[00:29:25] Deepak: Alright Orly Amir, program manager at N U S T L at S&T. It's been a pleasure having you here. I've really enjoyed getting to know you and peeling back the layers as to what you do for a living and just also who you are as a person. We really appreciate your time on the Technologically Speaking Podcast.

[00:29:42] Orly: Thanks so much. I'm always happy to talk about how much I like to work in support of first responders and how awesome NST L is. So, thanks for the opportunity.

[00:29:50] Deepak:  This has been Technologically Speaking the official podcast of DHS Science and Technology Directorate. To learn more about S&T and find additional information, about what you heard in this episode visit us online at SCITECH@dhs.gov. Follow us on social media at DHS SCITECH. Thanks for listening.